The Catholic Herald reported that more than 140 Catholic theologians from universities in Austria, Switzerland and Germany have called for the Church to ordain women, end priestly celibacy and let lay people help select bishops, along with a few other changes, like allowing remarried divorcees to receive the Sacraments.
They said that enacting the reforms would attract people back to the Church.
Yeah, right. Because that really worked in the Church of England, didn't it?
It has nothing to do with The Church of England. These are issues that will have to be adressed.
ReplyDeleteThe sickeningly arrogant traditional bloggers among us want everything to be as it pre Pius XII.
Get real Mac. There is a whole church out here who do not care one iota for the TLM. We want to go forwards not backwards. We want fresh ideas and we want change.
Paul, aside from your comment showing a distinct lack of courtesy, your point is remarkable. Empirically, it has everything to do with CofE because all of these things have been tried, tested and have failed. We owe liberal Protestant denominations a debt of gratitude for showing us what can go wrong, viz, a 'Church' that moves with the world, rather than *The Church* which moves the world.
ReplyDeleteThe Catholic church has the grace of Apostolic Authority and the Magisterium; these are gifts from the Lord and not "issues to be addressed".
Bless you, Mac, for taking a stand against this spiritually dangerous and pernicious nonsense.
BTW, what has your post to do with the TLM? Paul, you are showing yourself to be small-minded and prejudiced against Catholics who's only wish is to be faithful to the Church and Christ's Vicar.
Shame on you for being so churlish and discourteous.
I'm afraid you're deluding yourself, Paul.
ReplyDeleteMac's comment about the C of E was absolutely spot on - if you decide to dilute, or ignore, or contradict the teachings which the Church has handed down for over two millennia then you're heading for a crash, as the C of E has, sadly, found to its cost.
The Church does not exist to sanctify or to rubber-stamp contemporary socio-political mores; she certainly does not exist to promote "fresh ideas" for their own sake - she exists to proclaim and teach eternal truths.
If some people prefer the former to the latter that is their own affair, but please don't demand that the Church should descend to the same level.
Incidentally, "sickeningly arrogant" isn't a particularly Christian way of describing someone, is it?
It would seem that much of this stems from a mistaken notion of what The Church is. The Church exists to *hand on* the truth, not to create or change it. It is simply the guardian of the Faith, not its author. These teachings will never change, no matter how many heretical theologians array themselves against the See of Peter.
ReplyDeleteWhat Rusticus said. The post-V2 church isn't exactly a good example of how to convert the multitudes either.
ReplyDeleteI am an Anglican, but not for much longer, thank God.
Well, Paul and all others who share his opinion and that of the 140 'theologians', who really really really should know this: while there are certain things the Church could theoretically allow and does on occasion, such as ordaining married men, there are other things which it is just nonsensical to call upon the Church to 'allow', such as ordaining women, changing such facts as that people in mortal sin are not able to receive Holy Communion without eating and drinking their own condemnation and that one cannot be absolved of a sin for which one has no contrition and/or which one has no intention of refraining from committing in the future, or, for that matter, making 2 plus 2 equal 5 rather than 4.
ReplyDeleteThat has absolutely nothing to do with the traditional liturgy, NO liturgy, Byzantine liturgy, Maronite liturgy or any other type of liturgy.
Goodness, I forgot to add the to me obvious point as to why it is nonsensical to ask the Church to 'allow' the latter category of changes, i.e. She does not have the authority to do so. It is impossible for her to do so. 2 and 2 does not equal 5, triangles are not squares, what is intrinsically evil cannot be made morally neutral or good, and women are not valid matter for Holy Orders. And the latter has nothing to do with holiness or the intrinsic value of women. After all, the Church has constantly upheld the truth that the human person of greatest holiness and most beloved by God of all human persons is a woman.
ReplyDeleteHmm, you've hit a raw nerve there, Mac.
ReplyDeletePaul-we're-all-Popes-now obviously feels empowered to speak for the whole church out there. If he would care to elaborate on the fresh ideas and change he is seeking we might understand where he is coming from and where he envisages going.
I would merely caution that those who forget - or ignore - history are condemned to repeat it.
Welcome to the fold AndrewWS. Not all sweetness and light, but we are only human.
Paul, your theory doesn't hold water; I've never been to the TLM although I've been to one NO Mass in Latin and disagree with you completely. There's nothing wrong with the Church that following Church teaching can't heal. But what do I know, I'm another Midwesterner clinging to her guns and religion.
ReplyDeleteDo you truly believe in One Catholic and Apostolic Church? If so you must also be obedient to Church teaching.
The Church is not a democracy; she shares Truth with all, whether or not they choose to pay attention. I don't know where you live, but the celibate priesthood doesn't diminish the number of men entering the seminary. They know full well that they give up the chance to have a family of their own in favor of having us as a family and are full of graces; my local seminary is full. The number of priests is increasing. The number of homosexuals in the priesthood and in seminaries is diminishing.
Women inherently can't act in persona christi as Christ was incarnate man, not woman. You may think that's a small point, but my guess is that you've been brainwashed by the liberal women who don't differentiate between inherent characteristics of men and women.
Oh, and you didn't mention it, but I don't believe women belong in the Sanctuary, either.
But in case you're thinking of traditional mantilla-clad women, that's not in response to St. Paul, but rather because angels are present during Mass.